Carmichael17:

JUST SHUT THE F UP!!!!!!!!!!!! EVERYTHING THE POSTER SAID WAS VALID-THE MEDIA AS A WHOLE THOUGHT THIS WAS A STRANGE SIGNING-WHAT F'N ROCK WERE YOU LIVING UNDER-DIDN'T YOU SEE WHAT HE DID IN BOSTON. HE SHOULD HAVE RESIGNED COCO. KENDALL IS JUST OK-HE LOOKS GOOD TO US BECAUSE MELVIN BROUGHT IN THAT SACK OF CRAP THE YEAR BEFORE AND ANYTHING RESEMBLING A MLB CATHER WOULD BE A HUGE UPGRADE. WHY IN THE HELL DOES IT ANNOY YOU THAT MELVIN IS CRITICIZED

Umm...just thought I should tell you your caps lock is on, didn't know if you were aware.

Why are you annoyed that I'm annoyed by people criticizing him.  And I'm not annoyed that people criticize, I'm annoyed by the lack of support for their criticism.  Everything I said was valid too.  No, not everyone in the media thought it was odd.  If you really are going to make me, I'll go back and find all of the archived articles that thought it was a good signing.  You say look what he did in Boston, I say look what he did in Texas.  Why would you be any more right?

My point was not that the poster was wrong, but that there are valid reasons for everything that Melvin did, and none of the decisions were so terrible that his head should be cut off, stuck on a pole, and paraded around Milwaukee.

shipitdear:

Agree w/ everything but for Cordero.  Please try and pry yourself away from the conventional wisdom.  The "no closer is worth that amount of money" is authentic frontier gibberish.  How many wins would Cordero have directly translated to and we're still in May?  Isn't it all about w's and l's?  Besides, it's not like Melvin made a conscious decision to let him go, he fumbled it away.  Read Haurdircourt's several articles on the subject. 

Ok, it's a fair point to say that the situation was botched.  If Melvin really would've paid that much, but didn't believe there was another suitor out there, then he screwed up.  But I don't think he was worth it any way.

It's not authentic frontier gibberish.  Teams survived for 80 years before the closer position even existed.  Look, I closed in college and I can tell you it's overrated.  It has little to do with talent and everything to do with mental ability.  If you can handle the stress, if you know that you're going to get outs, then you can be a closer.  If you doubt yourself, you can't simple as that - it's why the guys with the biggest attitudes and egos are the best closers.  Anyone Major League pitcher should be able to come into a game with no one on and get three outs before someone scores.  It's a matter of whether you have the mental makeup to be able to do it.  A guy who comes in with the bases loaded and no outs (Stetter) and gets out of it giving up one or no runs is much more valuable.

ike1024:

Carmichael17:

JUST SHUT THE F UP!!!!!!!!!!!! EVERYTHING THE POSTER SAID WAS VALID-THE MEDIA AS A WHOLE THOUGHT THIS WAS A STRANGE SIGNING-WHAT F'N ROCK WERE YOU LIVING UNDER-DIDN'T YOU SEE WHAT HE DID IN BOSTON. HE SHOULD HAVE RESIGNED COCO. KENDALL IS JUST OK-HE LOOKS GOOD TO US BECAUSE MELVIN BROUGHT IN THAT SACK OF CRAP THE YEAR BEFORE AND ANYTHING RESEMBLING A MLB CATHER WOULD BE A HUGE UPGRADE. WHY IN THE HELL DOES IT ANNOY YOU THAT MELVIN IS CRITICIZED

My point was not that the poster was wrong, but that there are valid reasons for everything that Melvin did, and none of the decisions were so terrible that his head should be cut off, stuck on a pole, and paraded around Milwaukee.

shipitdear:

ike - go back and look at the Haurdricourt stuff on Melvin/Cordero.  Email Tom and ask him if he thinks Doug was caught off guard when he left for Cinci.  This wasn't a "decision" so much as it was a guy not doing his job.  Head cut off?  No.  Open season for harsh criticism?  ABSOLUTELY.

I've read the articles.  I just said that if he was willing to pay that much and just handled it poorly, then fine, criticize away.

I've had these disagreements before about the level of criticism that becomes obnoxious.  Instead of: "Cordero was our savior, Melvin runied the Brewers, Cameron was a terrible signing, the Brewers suck" criticism, I would just like it if someone set forth a legitimate scenario where Melvin should have done something different, and give reasoning why it would have made sense at the time.  I'll give you Cordero because none of us really know what happened there and it did seem like Cordero wanted to stay and left somewhat abruptly, although I still don't think he was worth that kind of money.

ike1024:

shipitdear:

ike - go back and look at the Haurdricourt stuff on Melvin/Cordero.  Email Tom and ask him if he thinks Doug was caught off guard when he left for Cinci.  This wasn't a "decision" so much as it was a guy not doing his job.  Head cut off?  No.  Open season for harsh criticism?  ABSOLUTELY.

I've read the articles.  I just said that if he was willing to pay that much and just handled it poorly, then fine, criticize away.

I've had these disagreements before about the level of criticism that becomes obnoxious.  Instead of: "Cordero was our savior, Melvin runied the Brewers, Cameron was a terrible signing, the Brewers suck" criticism, I would just like it if someone set forth a legitimate scenario where Melvin should have done something different, and give reasoning why it would have made sense at the time.  I'll give you Cordero because none of us really know what happened there and it did seem like Cordero wanted to stay and left somewhat abruptly, although I still don't think he was worth that kind of money.

shipitdear:

That's cool.  We're in synch - the only thing we disagree on was whether Cordero was worth the dough.  Ironically, I'd argue for the Reds no, but for the Brewers yes.

Yeah, and I think that's a fair argument.

I should really stop starting posts like this because the only people I end up discussing it with are the people that I have no problem with.  By the way, if you're not watching the game, apparently Yost still has confidence that Gagne will be the Brewers closer.  That's interesting.

ike1024:

 By the way, if you're not watching the game, apparently Yost still has confidence that Gagne will be the Brewers closer.  That's interesting.

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

shipitdear:

ike1024:

 By the way, if you're not watching the game, apparently Yost still has confidence that Gagne will be the Brewers closer.  That's interesting.

I just heard that.  Melvin too.  Not sure if that's sincere or just being politcial.  Suppan getting squeezed.  Great.

Ueck just reported last inning that the Crew will use a closer by committee for a while. Perfect cast for that type of decision....

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

shipitdear:

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

Well, that's precisely the point, Shipit.

Going into today's action, Cordero appeared in 14 games, versus 17 for Gagne. That might not seem like a lot, but this early in the season that extra three games represents over 5% of the total games played -- the fact of the matter is, Gagne has been used more than Cordero, so it's abolutely not clear to project Cordero's current statistics onto Gagne's situation.

If Cordero sets the save record, we'll visit that when it happens. That doesn't change the fact that he's been an average closer to this date, and has recorded entire seasons at SVO% that are not far from what Gagne is currently sporting.

I can certainly admit that I was mistaken about Gagne, but that does not mean that Cordero would have been a better option by default. You've got to take the good with the bad with Cordero's past record, and recognize that he's not that great of a closer -- he's not a bad closer, he's just average, and has had an average past, with as many leads conversion% under 80% as over 90%.

To just act like Cordero is a lock for an 86% SVO and a very good record in close games is ignorant of his career as a closer.

So, that's my point. I'm fine with being wrong about Gagne -- I am not really bothered by that, but my point is simply that that doesn't change Cordero's average career record.

 He really rubbed me the wrong way with his under the table contract extension of Yost.  The fans were all screaming for Yost's head, and not only did he not fire him, he gave him an extension.  He then did not report the extension until spring, saying he forgot.

Also, weren't many of the players drafted under the Dean Taylor regime? 

 If anyone wants to blame Melvin for not resigning Cordero, I can understand that.  Frankly, I didn't mind losing Cordero.  I will give him next season as his last productive season.  There was a noticeable drop off in Corderos performance in the second half last year as well in road games.  How was Melvin suppose to know that the Boston Gagne would show up this season instead of the Texas Gagne?  There was a larger body of work to look at in Texas, it was reasonable to assume that was what the team would get as a closer.  Unless there was soemthing visibly wrong in Gagne's mechanics that could have been forseen, how can that be blamed on Melvin?  At the time, it was a risk, but it was only for one season.  Cordero will not be this dominant in the 3rd and 4th years of the contract I don't doubt.  All these same posters I am sure would have Melvins head for signing Cordero to such a long contract.

 In regards to Kendall, the Brewers were 2 games away from winning the division with Fatty Estrada, and Kendall has had nearly the same offensive output and hasn't grounded into any double plays.  His arm hasn't been any better, but he blocks the plate and can run.  That is an upgrade that was as risky as the Gagne signing.

 Don't get mad at Melvin for the market of signing players.  Are Suppan and Cordero overpriced?  Most definitely.  But what is Melvin suppose to do about that?  Suppan has had 5 quality starts of 8 total so far this season, I am pretty sure.  He is not a 42 million 5th starter, give him a little credit.
 

If Melvin was unaware of Gagne's drug (HGH) problem before aquiring him then I don't blame him. It seems to me like he was outed after the deal was done, correct me if I am wrong.

As for Suppan and Kendall, I like them both. Excellent start by Soup today, looked like the 06' version. Kendall has been rock steady as has been Kapler for that matter.

Ike: Please, please, PLEASE find an article where it said the Gagne signing was a good one (at least written by someone other than Radio Silence). On the Journal boards, articles were reprinted by SI and others ripping the signing and most people here criticized the criticizers. The only people who liked the signing was the koolaid drinkers.

But let's look over Melvin's history. There was one trade that was an unmitigated success for the Brewers (acquiring Carlos Lee for Scott Posednik).

His first major trade was getting rid of Rickie Sexson. For Sexson, at the time, one of the premier first basemen in MLB, he got Chad Moeller (a terrible player), Junior Spivey (a terrible player who was traded for Tomo Ohka), Jorge DeLa Rosa (a mediocre pitcher who was later traded for Tony Graffanino), Craig Counsell (a one-year stopgap at SS, but like 20 other players he could have gotten to be the bridge to Hardy), Chris Capuano and Lyle Overbay. Capuano was ok (the year he won 18, he got loads of run support, the next year he was an all-star and then has been in a freefall since then....last year one could argue that Yost's stubborn insistence of running him out there was a major contributing factor to not making the playoffs). Overbay was above average.

2 years later it was time to trade Overbay. Prince Fielder was waiting in the wings, so Melvin had an opportunity to trade a good surplus to fill in deficiencies elsewhere on the roster. What did he get? Gabe Gross, a backup outfielder (despite Einstein's insistence that he was almost as good as Mickey Mantle), Dave Bush, a #5 starter and Zach Jackson, at 25, still in AAA. I don't think anyone can say this was a good trade for the Brewers.

Another trade was the one with Arizona sending Doug Davis, Dana Eveland and Dave Krynze in return for Estrada, Vargas and Aquino, another bad trade for the Brewers.

A couple other MAJOR mistakes from Melvin were signing 2 mediocre journeymen to $6 million 2 year contracts....Brady Clark and Wes Helms, only because they had one good year with the Brewers (you can throw Turnbow's signing in here as well.

All in all, Melvin has a lot to answer to.