ike1024:

But to the guy who thought it was a bad move to let Cordero and Linebrink go: No 7th inning reliever is worth what Linebrink got.  He had a great year in San Diego - I would have a 4.00 ERA in SD.  He really isn't that great and they would have had to severely overpay to keep him and then we would have to hear about what a terrible signing that was and how they overpaid. 

Scott Linebrink= 2008: ERA 1.80    Salary 4 million this season...Your right, the Brewers couldn't use that this year...

Cordero= 2008: ERA 1.93   Salary 8.6 mill

Gagne= 2008: ERA 6.89  Salary 10 mill

Ok, you've convinced me, keeping what we had last year was way too expensive..

ike1024:

Why are you annoyed that I'm annoyed by people criticizing him.  And I'm not annoyed that people criticize, I'm annoyed by the lack of support for their criticism.  Everything I said was valid too. 

Einsteinhood:

It's from Scouts inc (a division of ESPN.com) and Keith Law. It's the only "scouting report" that I saw of all the talk about Gagne's contract this offseason. Most writers chose to make jokes and focus on a few months last year. If there are others, I didn't see them.

As for the window being closed, I totally disagree. First of all, I think if things are managed well, the window can stay open for 5 to 6 years before a small rebuild to reopen another window. Second, guys can make it to the majors fairly quickly. LaPorta will probably be up a year and a half after being drafted, and some guys (like college closers (I'm crossing my fingers for Josh Fields, I think)) are up even sooner. I plan on being a fan for the rest of my life, so I'll take talent where I can get it.
 

That's the only article I saw that said the signing was a good one. It was a reactionary move by Melvin because he just lost Cordero. btw, who was he bidding against? He could have gotten Gagne for less money, I'm sure.

If you want the window to remain open, a couple things have to happen.

1) Jack Z. has to draft better. I know that's sure to get an argument from you. He's impressive in the first round (baseball drafts are a crapshoot so even drafting early is no sure thing). His second rounders are 50/50 and he's batting about .025 after round 2.

2) He has to stop drafting DH's. Fielder, Braun, LaPorta....too bad we still don't play in the A.L.

3) Melvin has to trade better. (If he's still around).

4) They're going to have to pay someone at some point.

btw, a couple unrelated points.

1) You mentioned the college closers, don't you like Pena at AAA? I know relief pitcher depth is good also, but isn't he being groomed as the closer of the future?

2) This year, the Brewers came into the year proclaiming how important defense is. That's why the Cameron signing happend. Next year, they supposedly plan on having LaPorta in the outfield, where he's a butcher. Isn't this contradictory?

shipitdear:

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

cpk1994:

shipitdear:

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

But you are ignoring an important part. The Reds are on the hook for Cordero for 4 YEARS. What if he collapses this year? The Reds are still on the hook for 3 more years. The Brewers, on the other hand, will part with Gagne at the end of the year. You can't judge letting Cordero go only 1 month into his 4 YEAR deal. It is stupid to already get on Melvin for Cordero when Cordero has 3 1/2 years to go on his deal.

Also, I seem to remember many at the JSO board who are now here who said at the time Cordero wasn't worth the money the Reds gave him. Kind of funny how people all of a sudden change their mind.

For the record, I was beside myself the day we lost Cordero and made it really clear repeatedly.  You're right though, the overwhelming sentiment at the time was that the Reds overpaid. 

shipitdear:

cpk1994:

shipitdear:

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

But you are ignoring an important part. The Reds are on the hook for Cordero for 4 YEARS. What if he collapses this year? The Reds are still on the hook for 3 more years. The Brewers, on the other hand, will part with Gagne at the end of the year. You can't judge letting Cordero go only 1 month into his 4 YEAR deal. It is stupid to already get on Melvin for Cordero when Cordero has 3 1/2 years to go on his deal.

Also, I seem to remember many at the JSO board who are now here who said at the time Cordero wasn't worth the money the Reds gave him. Kind of funny how people all of a sudden change their mind.

This is the only legit argument left re:  this subject.  You're right, he could certainly break down over the next 3 3/4 seasons.  I still say that was a risk worth taking because all the other pieces were in place this year (nobody could have foreseen the Gallardo injury) and the only major player the Brewers are going to lose over the next 4 seasons is Sheets.  The other major factor at work was what the backup plan was if Cordero got away.  I don't believe Melvin had one.  Hence, the Gagne signing was the only option available.  This is precisely what I was afraid of.  Gagne has blown a bunch of saves, they're $10 million out and still in search of a replacement which will almost certainly cost more money and maybe players in a trade.  Yes, I know they got draft picks in return but I'd rather have Coco w/ our "win now" roster.

For the record, I was beside myself the day we lost Cordero and made it really clear repeatedly.  You're right though, the overwhelming sentiment at the time was that the Reds overpaid. 

Ship:  The line you have in there is key. Sheets is the only major player they're going to lose. And what do you think Milwaukee's record would have been this year without Sheets?  Not 18-19 - probably 14-23 and in last place.

No one is dealing with the real issue ... Mark and Doug need to get the checkbook out now and sign Sheets... make him a ridiculous offer. Where are they going to find a No. 1 starter for the next four years? I don't care how much hitting they have, they need three playoff caliber starting pitchers. Right now, I see one (Sheets) and maybe Suppan.

BeerandBraunies:

 If anyone wants to blame Melvin for not resigning Cordero, I can understand that.  Frankly, I didn't mind losing Cordero.  I will give him next season as his last productive season.  There was a noticeable drop off in Corderos performance in the second half last year as well in road games.  How was Melvin suppose to know that the Boston Gagne would show up this season instead of the Texas Gagne?  There was a larger body of work to look at in Texas, it was reasonable to assume that was what the team would get as a closer.  Unless there was soemthing visibly wrong in Gagne's mechanics that could have been forseen, how can that be blamed on Melvin?  At the time, it was a risk, but it was only for one season.  Cordero will not be this dominant in the 3rd and 4th years of the contract I don't doubt.  All these same posters I am sure would have Melvins head for signing Cordero to such a long contract.

 In regards to Kendall, the Brewers were 2 games away from winning the division with Fatty Estrada, and Kendall has had nearly the same offensive output and hasn't grounded into any double plays.  His arm hasn't been any better, but he blocks the plate and can run.  That is an upgrade that was as risky as the Gagne signing.

 Don't get mad at Melvin for the market of signing players.  Are Suppan and Cordero overpriced?  Most definitely.  But what is Melvin suppose to do about that?  Suppan has had 5 quality starts of 8 total so far this season, I am pretty sure.  He is not a 42 million 5th starter, give him a little credit.
 

 

 

brewguru:

Ike: Please, please, PLEASE find an article where it said the Gagne signing was a good one (at least written by someone other than Radio Silence). On the Journal boards, articles were reprinted by SI and others ripping the signing and most people here criticized the criticizers. The only people who liked the signing was the koolaid drinkers.

 

But let's look over Melvin's history. There was one trade that was an unmitigated success for the Brewers (acquiring Carlos Lee for Scott Posednik).

His first major trade was getting rid of Rickie Sexson. For Sexson, at the time, one of the premier first basemen in MLB, he got Chad Moeller (a terrible player), Junior Spivey (a terrible player who was traded for Tomo Ohka), Jorge DeLa Rosa (a mediocre pitcher who was later traded for Tony Graffanino), Craig Counsell (a one-year stopgap at SS, but like 20 other players he could have gotten to be the bridge to Hardy), Chris Capuano and Lyle Overbay. Capuano was ok (the year he won 18, he got loads of run support, the next year he was an all-star and then has been in a freefall since then....last year one could argue that Yost's stubborn insistence of running him out there was a major contributing factor to not making the playoffs). Overbay was above average.

2 years later it was time to trade Overbay. Prince Fielder was waiting in the wings, so Melvin had an opportunity to trade a good surplus to fill in deficiencies elsewhere on the roster. What did he get? Gabe Gross, a backup outfielder (despite Einstein's insistence that he was almost as good as Mickey Mantle), Dave Bush, a #5 starter and Zach Jackson, at 25, still in AAA. I don't think anyone can say this was a good trade for the Brewers.

Another trade was the one with Arizona sending Doug Davis, Dana Eveland and Dave Krynze in return for Estrada, Vargas and Aquino, another bad trade for the Brewers.

A couple other MAJOR mistakes from Melvin were signing 2 mediocre journeymen to $6 million 2 year contracts....Brady Clark and Wes Helms, only because they had one good year with the Brewers (you can throw Turnbow's signing in here as well.

All in all, Melvin has a lot to answer to.

 

ptisme:

BTW, I don't think Melvin should be held accountable for the Turnbow signing because Turnbow was the man back when he signed that contract...I don't know of anyone who thought that was a bad move at the time...

In October 2004, the Brewers acquired Derrick Turnbow on waivers from the Angels.

In 2005, Turnbow became the closer and saved a club record 39 games.

In that off-season, Melvin rewarded the waiver pickup with a 3-year, $6.7 mil contract (approx.)

I know A LOT of people who thought that was a bad move.

alffan:

shipitdear:

cpk1994:

shipitdear:

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

But you are ignoring an important part. The Reds are on the hook for Cordero for 4 YEARS. What if he collapses this year? The Reds are still on the hook for 3 more years. The Brewers, on the other hand, will part with Gagne at the end of the year. You can't judge letting Cordero go only 1 month into his 4 YEAR deal. It is stupid to already get on Melvin for Cordero when Cordero has 3 1/2 years to go on his deal.

Also, I seem to remember many at the JSO board who are now here who said at the time Cordero wasn't worth the money the Reds gave him. Kind of funny how people all of a sudden change their mind.

This is the only legit argument left re:  this subject.  You're right, he could certainly break down over the next 3 3/4 seasons.  I still say that was a risk worth taking because all the other pieces were in place this year (nobody could have foreseen the Gallardo injury) and the only major player the Brewers are going to lose over the next 4 seasons is Sheets.  The other major factor at work was what the backup plan was if Cordero got away.  I don't believe Melvin had one.  Hence, the Gagne signing was the only option available.  This is precisely what I was afraid of.  Gagne has blown a bunch of saves, they're $10 million out and still in search of a replacement which will almost certainly cost more money and maybe players in a trade.  Yes, I know they got draft picks in return but I'd rather have Coco w/ our "win now" roster.

For the record, I was beside myself the day we lost Cordero and made it really clear repeatedly.  You're right though, the overwhelming sentiment at the time was that the Reds overpaid. 

Ship:  The line you have in there is key. Sheets is the only major player they're going to lose. And what do you think Milwaukee's record would have been this year without Sheets?  Not 18-19 - probably 14-23 and in last place.

No one is dealing with the real issue ... Mark and Doug need to get the checkbook out now and sign Sheets... make him a ridiculous offer. Where are they going to find a No. 1 starter for the next four years? I don't care how much hitting they have, they need three playoff caliber starting pitchers. Right now, I see one (Sheets) and maybe Suppan.

 

cpk1994:

What if he collapses this year?

Lets rock and roll.... 

brewguru:

That's the only article I saw that said the signing was a good one. It was a reactionary move by Melvin because he just lost Cordero. btw, who was he bidding against? He could have gotten Gagne for less money, I'm sure.

Also not sure if he could have gotten Gagne for less money. He probably could have, especially after the Mitchell report came out. But I'm also not too  worried, because it's a one year deal. Filling the spot was the teams biggest need left at the time, so part of me says just pay whatever you have to for one year to get the best guy left on the market, which I believe Gagne was. If it was a multi-year deal, we would be having a different conversation.  

brewguru:

1) Jack Z. has to draft better. I know that's sure to get an argument from you. He's impressive in the first round (baseball drafts are a crapshoot so even drafting early is no sure thing). His second rounders are 50/50 and he's batting about .025 after round 2.

brewguru:

2) He has to stop drafting DH's. Fielder, Braun, LaPorta....too bad we still don't play in the A.L.

He's also had trouble drafting pitching, though that is more difficult from what I've heard, than drafting hitting.

brewguru:

3) Melvin has to trade better. (If he's still around).

I don't have a problem with his trades. People expect miracles every time, and it just doesn't work that way. 

brewguru:

4) They're going to have to pay someone at some point.

I'm with Badger80 in wanting to get Hart locked in long term. 

brewguru:

1) You mentioned the college closers, don't you like Pena at AAA? I know relief pitcher depth is good also, but isn't he being groomed as the closer of the future?

brewguru:

2) This year, the Brewers came into the year proclaiming how important defense is. That's why the Cameron signing happend. Next year, they supposedly plan on having LaPorta in the outfield, where he's a butcher. Isn't this contradictory?

1) This is from Jim Callis of Baseball America's chat this week:

Albert (StL, MO): Early returns on LaPorta's defense? Passable or not?

 Jim Callis: Passable.

2) Defense is important, but everything has to be considered. I don't think you can say that a team is contradicting itself because it says defense is important and then decides to put a guy like LaPorta in a corner OF spot. It's all about whether or not he can play the position and if benefit on offense is worth the cost on D. 

alffan:

shipitdear:

cpk1994:

shipitdear:

radio silence:

How many wins would Cordero have directly contributed to this year?

It's fine to criticize Melvin for not signing Cordero, but that criticism doesn't correlate to Cordero's success; in fact, there's no one here that knows that Cordero would not have reverted to his low-to-mid 70% SVO% days had the Brewers signed that. It's simply poor argumentation to assume that becaue Cordero is successful in Cincinnati right now that he would be in Milwaukee, too -- Gagne's workload has been different from Cordero's to start with, and there's no telling how Cordero would have responded to the stretches of close games that Gagne faced.

We could very well be in the same situation with Cordero, and that's a fact based on his past track record.

Radio - you're reaching so far w/ this that it actually made me laugh.  Look at his numbers so far w/ the Reds this year - granted, in limited duty.  You are one of those guys that is NEVER going to admit you're wrong on this one.  It's fine, we can discuss other stuff, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you.  Cordero could set the save record this year and have a 1.3 ERA and you wouldn't change your mind.  It's cool.

But you are ignoring an important part. The Reds are on the hook for Cordero for 4 YEARS. What if he collapses this year? The Reds are still on the hook for 3 more years. The Brewers, on the other hand, will part with Gagne at the end of the year. You can't judge letting Cordero go only 1 month into his 4 YEAR deal. It is stupid to already get on Melvin for Cordero when Cordero has 3 1/2 years to go on his deal.

Also, I seem to remember many at the JSO board who are now here who said at the time Cordero wasn't worth the money the Reds gave him. Kind of funny how people all of a sudden change their mind.

This is the only legit argument left re:  this subject.  You're right, he could certainly break down over the next 3 3/4 seasons.  I still say that was a risk worth taking because all the other pieces were in place this year (nobody could have foreseen the Gallardo injury) and the only major player the Brewers are going to lose over the next 4 seasons is Sheets.  The other major factor at work was what the backup plan was if Cordero got away.  I don't believe Melvin had one.  Hence, the Gagne signing was the only option available.  This is precisely what I was afraid of.  Gagne has blown a bunch of saves, they're $10 million out and still in search of a replacement which will almost certainly cost more money and maybe players in a trade.  Yes, I know they got draft picks in return but I'd rather have Coco w/ our "win now" roster.

For the record, I was beside myself the day we lost Cordero and made it really clear repeatedly.  You're right though, the overwhelming sentiment at the time was that the Reds overpaid. 

Ship:  The line you have in there is key. Sheets is the only major player they're going to lose. And what do you think Milwaukee's record would have been this year without Sheets?  Not 18-19 - probably 14-23 and in last place.

No one is dealing with the real issue ... Mark and Doug need to get the checkbook out now and sign Sheets... make him a ridiculous offer. Where are they going to find a No. 1 starter for the next four years? I don't care how much hitting they have, they need three playoff caliber starting pitchers. Right now, I see one (Sheets) and maybe Suppan.