Macha has been pondering switching Hart to the 2 spot and Hardy to the 5 spot in order to help protect Fielder.  That would not be a good idea for a variety of reasons:

1) Hart can steal more bases at the 5 spot and wouldn't do much running when hitting in front of Bruan and Fielder

2)  Hardy had a better OBP than Hart last year and is a better hitter overall who would get more AB's in the 2 spot

3)  Hardy is notorious as a fastball hitter and would get a lot more in the 2 hole than the 5 hole

P.S. - I've been gone for a few days.  What is with Counsell's injury?

pdevine22:

P.S. - I've been gone for a few days.  What is with Counsell's injury?

With the release of Lamb, it looks like Counsell is going to forego surgery and play through it.

4) Hart is one of lowest guys when it comes to pitches per AB so you're hurting Rickie's steal ops too.

The move should help Corey but you'd be subtracting from too many other areas, imho.

Counsell has torn cartilage in his knee and is gonna try and play through it.

 1.) I think a point was made on the telecast last night that Macha says this team is what it is.  A HR hitting team and they are not going to waste outs on the bases.  So I expect less steal attempts this year.

2.) Speed is not just for Stolen bases.  Hart is a better baserunner and probably scores every time on a double from first or a single from second.  Speed is not just about stealing bases but getting around the bases faster on balls in play.  I think Hart provides that for a middle of the order that will feature Braun, Fielder, and Hardy  a middle of the lineup that I wouldn't be suprised if they posted a .575 combined slugging percentage between the three.  So there should be plenty of opportunity to run that doesn't include stealing bases.

3.) While Corey had a bad OBP last season his prior year was .353 in the majors and his prior years in the minors included OBP ranging between .340 to .399.  Last year's .343 was JJ's best of his professional career save for one year at AA where he had a .367 OBP.  Personally if I were a betting man I would put good money on Corey having a better OBP this year than JJ Hardy

I'm fine with this as long as Corey stays safely above a .300 OBP. If he can't, then it's time to move him back.

He could definitely score a lot with a .340/.500 and all of that speed.

pdevine22:

1) Hart can steal more bases at the 5 spot and wouldn't do much running when hitting in front of Bruan and Fielder

Hart would be doing plenty of running.  Except it would be around the bases instead of station to station.  Braun, Fielder and Hardt are XBH machines, so having a player who can score from first there will lead to more runs.

On a more subtle note, Hart will also create a distraction for a pitcher trying to face two of the most dangerous hitters in the NL in Braun and Prince.  In theory, he should stay out of DP's better.  But that assumes he stops hacking at breaking balls away, which he seems to be doing, also.

pdevine22:

2)  Hardy had a better OBP than Hart last year

A valid point on the OBP, except that I would guess Macha is assuming that the adjustments Hart has made in the offseason, as evidenced by his ST performance, will cause him to revert back to more of the 2007 Hart.  If it does not turn out that way, the move can easily be undone.  It's not like a position change.

pdevine22:

and is a better hitter overall who would get more AB's in the 2 spot

The thing is, Hardy being a better hitter (both OBP and SLG) in the 5 spot will mean that he has far more RBI opportunities driving in the likes of Weeks, Hart, Braun and Fielder, with Weeks, Braun and Fielder all being above league average in OBP, and Fielder getting walked a fair amount.

It will also force people to pitch to Fielder a little more often.  Hardy's career numbers there, although in a relatively small sample size, are absolutely outstanding, as well.  So being in that spot may lead to an improvement in his performance.

So then you have to weigh whether having the higher avg and slg behind the 2 high OBP's will yield more rund that having one higher obp player in front of two high slugging players.  To me, that seems like a wash statistically.  The difference maker, in my opinion, is that the speed is more appropriate at 2, and the individual performance histories of the players indicates that Macha's new way is the correct one.

pdevine22:

3)  Hardy is notorious as a fastball hitter and would get a lot more in the 2 hole than the 5 hole

Hart is a notorious fastball misser, so you could argue that the bigger jump in performance as a result of the fastballs will be with Hart.  Having Rickie running in front of Hart may force him to be more patient, as well.

The other thing I think is wierd which I don't quite understand is that Hardy seems to think he sees more fastballs in the 5 spot, according to his interview with Haudricourt a few weeks ago.  I assume that the league would make some adjustment for that, or that he figures he'll get more fastballs due to runners on base than from protection of Braun and Fielder.

The_Igniter:

 1.) I think a point was made on the telecast last night that Macha says this team is what it is.  A HR hitting team and they are not going to waste outs on the bases.  So I expect less steal attempts this year.

2.) Speed is not just for Stolen bases.  Hart is a better baserunner and probably scores every time on a double from first or a single from second.  Speed is not just about stealing bases but getting around the bases faster on balls in play.  I think Hart provides that for a middle of the order that will feature Braun, Fielder, and Hardy  a middle of the lineup that I wouldn't be suprised if they posted a .575 combined slugging percentage between the three.  So there should be plenty of opportunity to run that doesn't include stealing bases.

3.) While Corey had a bad OBP last season his prior year was .353 in the majors and his prior years in the minors included OBP ranging between .340 to .399.  Last year's .343 was JJ's best of his professional career save for one year at AA where he had a .367 OBP.  Personally if I were a betting man I would put good money on Corey having a better OBP this year than JJ Hardy

Well Said.

Excellent Post.

 Great Post Igniter.. Corey had one down year of OBP and I think he'll be much better this year..  I actually like the lineup change.  I loved Hardy hitting in the 5 spot last year and I think that was part of the reason Prince got so hot at the end of last year is because he had protection with Hardy behind him...

 Also, a lineup I think would be interesting and should try out is having Hart leadoff and then Weeks in the 2 hole followed by Braun, Fielder, and Hardy..Maybe it wouldn't work worth a shiiit, but I think it would be worth a try.. Also I like that Macha is willing to mix it up and make changes if things aren't working.. Unlike Yost who would ride the same lineup every single day no matter how bad it was..

brewhawk:

The_Igniter:

 1.) I think a point was made on the telecast last night that Macha says this team is what it is.  A HR hitting team and they are not going to waste outs on the bases.  So I expect less steal attempts this year.

2.) Speed is not just for Stolen bases.  Hart is a better baserunner and probably scores every time on a double from first or a single from second.  Speed is not just about stealing bases but getting around the bases faster on balls in play.  I think Hart provides that for a middle of the order that will feature Braun, Fielder, and Hardy  a middle of the lineup that I wouldn't be suprised if they posted a .575 combined slugging percentage between the three.  So there should be plenty of opportunity to run that doesn't include stealing bases.

3.) While Corey had a bad OBP last season his prior year was .353 in the majors and his prior years in the minors included OBP ranging between .340 to .399.  Last year's .343 was JJ's best of his professional career save for one year at AA where he had a .367 OBP.  Personally if I were a betting man I would put good money on Corey having a better OBP this year than JJ Hardy

Well Said.

Excellent Post.

The_Igniter:

 1.) I think a point was made on the telecast last night that Macha says this team is what it is.  A HR hitting team and they are not going to waste outs on the bases.  So I expect less steal attempts this year.

2.) Speed is not just for Stolen bases.  Hart is a better baserunner and probably scores every time on a double from first or a single from second.  Speed is not just about stealing bases but getting around the bases faster on balls in play.  I think Hart provides that for a middle of the order that will feature Braun, Fielder, and Hardy  a middle of the lineup that I wouldn't be suprised if they posted a .575 combined slugging percentage between the three.  So there should be plenty of opportunity to run that doesn't include stealing bases.

3.) While Corey had a bad OBP last season his prior year was .353 in the majors and his prior years in the minors included OBP ranging between .340 to .399.  Last year's .343 was JJ's best of his professional career save for one year at AA where he had a .367 OBP.  Personally if I were a betting man I would put good money on Corey having a better OBP this year than JJ Hardy

I know it would be nice to have a fast guy in the 2 hole, I just think Hart's speed would be used better in the 5 spot by swiping bags, one of his best weapons. 

I wouldn't be worried about Hart's OBP last year as much if it wasn't for a terrible approach at the plate.  If it was struggling that's one thing, but he was just awful and refused to work the pitcher, which you like in a 2 hitter.  If his approach is back to the beginning of last year, then I'm fine with him 2nd. 

Also, Hardy is a very streaky hitter, so when he's 5th and goes cold, for that 2 week span or so, Fielder won't get a lot of good pitches to hit until Hardy starts hitting again.  Hart would provide more consistent protection to Fielder IMO becuase he doesn't usually have long cold streaks (not counting the last part of last year)

Is everyone else sick of line-up discussions?  Agree or disagree, we're talking about maybe a few runs.  Ultimately these threads are exercises in overthinking and another example of a need for the season to start.

Who ever makes the fewest outs, move to the front.  Guys who make the most outs, get to the back.  Done.

badger80:

Is everyone else sick of line-up discussions?  Agree or disagree, we're talking about maybe a few runs.  Ultimately these threads are exercises in overthinking and another example of a need for the season to start.

Who ever makes the fewest outs, move to the front.  Guys who make the most outs, get to the back.  Done.

After a 4-month Spring Training, it gives people stuff to talk about. :)

badger80:

Is everyone else sick of line-up discussions?  Agree or disagree, we're talking about maybe a few runs.  Ultimately these threads are exercises in overthinking and another example of a need for the season to start.

Who ever makes the fewest outs, move to the front.  Guys who make the most outs, get to the back.  Done.

Why on earth would we not talk about baseball strategy on a baseball message board, dillhole?

Do you even know what sport we are talking about on this board?

pdevine22:

I just think Hart's speed would be used better in the 5 spot by swiping bags, one of his best weapons. 

I don't know how many extra runs that is realistically going to result in batting ahead of Cameron and Hall, who aren't really the slappy singles type hitters where the extra 90 feet will make a difference.

pdevine22:

Hart would provide more consistent protection to Fielder IMO becuase he doesn't usually have long cold streaks (not counting the last part of last year)

So Hardy has streaks, but Hart doesn't have streaks, except for the really long streak he had? 

Streaks are part of the game.  they come and go.  In general, I think you have to make the decision om the overall ability.  But even so, the nice thing about lineups, is that you can change them every day if need be.