geddymd72:

You are assuming that the umpire was measuring from the belt at the back. From the front, you can see the belt line is much lower. It may be me, but I doubt that the umpire has much a view of the guys belt from the back. I would think that he would measure more from the belt buckle in front. From the front, your yellow line is about 1/3 down from the shoulders (from the front view) and 2/3 up from the front of the belt.

The red line, is approximately where I think the umpire is putting the top edge of his strike zone. Its hard to say where in the flight path the ball is, but it is a close one.

 

It's always been a back-of-the-uniform definition. Using the belt buckle instead of the back of the belt as the starting point for the midpoint measurement would make for a zone that is impractically low.

There was a time when the top of the NL zone was about at the back of the belt, but it hasn't been there for a decade, since they had the big brouhaha about bringing it up.

I'm not sure what the umpire is looking at to gauge the top of the zone. Probably a point just below the armpits, which is a decent approximation of the zone as now called. Or in this case, he may have been looking at the W banners in the stands.

wisblue:

quicksdraw:

radio silence:

alffan:

It was above his shoulders I think Radio... looking at the diagram.

Watch the replay. it was across the chest. That was a strike, by definition.

it was a ball that ened the game by a human umpire.

And sent thousands of sub-human fans into ecstasy

if anyone can reconise a sub-human it would be you.

 

 

They look more elongated than they seem to be called in reality. I don't see a lot of those armpit high strikes called very often.

 

ike1024:

Juiceman:

Regarding your footer...Ty Cobb must not have cared about winning then because he should have hit .800, not .375 or whatever for his career, if he could in fact hit the ball within 15 ft of wherever he wanted to 4 out of 5 times

geddymd72:

Mike Cameron is the most overrated player in Major League Baseball.

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

You can't make a general statement here, Geddy, you should know that.  Most normal people would read your comment about Mike Cameron and say, "Gee, Geddy is frustrated with the play of Mike Cameron" or that "Mike Cameron is not playing as well as I think he should be or has in the past".  No, on the Brewers message board, every statement is taken literally, every word is critiqued until doomesday and every single one of these posters knows better than any one else. Just ask them.

First, geddy didn't say that.

Second, I think brewhawk actually means that.

Third, so much for you not coming on this board just to rile things up.

You're goddamned right I mean it.

Scoring Position

60

21

8

2

0

1

17

18

1

13

0

0

.133

.333

.217

.550

That doesn't include his 0-2 with RISP today.  Can't even get a critical bunt down late in the game, without striking out. 

It's not even like his overall numbers are good, either.  They're mediocre at best.  What *** good is 12 HR if the guy has 34 total RBI.

This guy is the anticlutch.  A rally killer of the highest magnitude.

I don't know how some of you can still turn a blind eye to how badly this overpaid POS is hurting the team right now.

 

I do enjoy how the Brewers sucked when they were shut down by Carlos Zamabrano, as opposed to the Cubs who were shut down by Jeff Suppan and needed a blown call in extra innings to get the win.

The National league as a whole is shitty.

brewhawk:

I don't know how some of you can still turn a blind eye to how badly this overpaid POS is hurting the team right now.

 

 

The same way you turn a blind eye to his entire performance, and only cite one poor aspect of his performance.

Cameron's overall production is slightly above average, he's slightly above average for CF, and he's batting average or slightly above average in the 5th and 6th spot. He is also batting well above average with bases empty, and just around average with men on base. His defense is pretty decent, and he's a veteran leader.

It's fine if you don't like the way he plays the game, just say he's not your type of player. But you're lying if you're calling him either overrated or overpaid. What type of salary do you expect for a veteran centerfielder that plays good defense and hits average or better, while also featuring one of the best active power / speed combinations, and veteran leadership?

Again, it's fine if you don't like him, but don't suddenly act ignorant of how salaries work in MLB, and also don't suddenly act ignorant of Cam's career value and leadership. You're smarter than that.

 

geddymd72:

 

 

They look more elongated than they seem to be called in reality. I don't see a lot of those armpit high strikes called very often.

 

And you won't, unless umpires go back to the old AL balloon chest protectors.. The variation between the top of the zone by rule and the top of the zone as usually called is probably two or three inches. IMO the effective top of the NL zone is about two inches above the pants at the back. I saw today's fateful pitch as splitting that "effective top" line, with about two-thirds of the ball below it and one-third above.

I wonder what would happen to the game if they ever did call the zone as defined in the rule book. I suspect you'd see more fastball pitchers in the league. And Albert Pujols would hit around .250.

The strikezone doesn't change when a batter bends over.  That pitch was belt-high.  That was a strike.  Again, the interpretation of the zone is what is killing this aspect of the game.

 

radio silence:

brewhawk:

I don't know how some of you can still turn a blind eye to how badly this overpaid POS is hurting the team right now.

 

 

The same way you turn a blind eye to his entire performance, and only cite one poor aspect of his performance.

Cameron's overall production is slightly above average, he's slightly above average for CF, and he's batting average or slightly above average in the 5th and 6th spot. He is also batting well above average with bases empty, and just around average with men on base. His defense is pretty decent, and he's a veteran leader.

It's fine if you don't like the way he plays the game, just say he's not your type of player. But you're lying if you're calling him either overrated or overpaid. What type of salary do you expect for a veteran centerfielder that plays good defense and hits average or better, while also featuring one of the best active power / speed combinations, and veteran leadership?

Again, it's fine if you don't like him, but don't suddenly act ignorant of how salaries work in MLB, and also don't suddenly act ignorant of Cam's career value and leadership. You're smarter than that.

 

Radio, I'm not going to go as far as Brewhawk, but it's hard to ignore that Cameron has really sucked the last month-plus.

0-5 today with 4 Ks, abysmal numbers with RISP.

I understand your points, but you can't blame Brewers fans for being a little agitated with him at the moment. Not only did he fail to get a bunt down, he popped up to first on a terrible pitch with the bases loaded and one out today.

He has been a pretty big rally-killer for well over a month now. I don't think he's a bad center fielder, but I can't say I'm a big Mike Cameron fan at the moment.

UWWhitewaterGrad:

The strikezone doesn't change when a batter bends over.  That pitch was belt-high.  That was a strike.  Again, the interpretation of the zone is what is killing this aspect of the game.

 

Yeah, I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the fact that Fox clearly bent over to make the zone shrink.

That was a joke of a call, and like I said earlier, I'm disgusted that Macha just turned his back and walked up the tunnel. As I've said before, baseball cannot be won on emotion and adrenaline, but for Crissakes, how can you just take it up the a** like that?

Not exactly the approach I want out of my manager. One thing I'll say about Ned is he would've blown his s*** over that call, and rightfully so.

wow stix thats one short vacation from the board, lol what was it about 3 hrs.

quicksdraw:

wow stix thats one short vacation from the board, lol what was it about 3 hrs.

Well, it's not as long as the 40-something-year vacation you've taken from Cubs boards, which is where any non-idiot Cubs fans would be.

Right, they don't exist.

stix:

radio silence:

brewhawk:

I don't know how some of you can still turn a blind eye to how badly this overpaid POS is hurting the team right now.

 

 

The same way you turn a blind eye to his entire performance, and only cite one poor aspect of his performance.

Cameron's overall production is slightly above average, he's slightly above average for CF, and he's batting average or slightly above average in the 5th and 6th spot. He is also batting well above average with bases empty, and just around average with men on base. His defense is pretty decent, and he's a veteran leader.

It's fine if you don't like the way he plays the game, just say he's not your type of player. But you're lying if you're calling him either overrated or overpaid. What type of salary do you expect for a veteran centerfielder that plays good defense and hits average or better, while also featuring one of the best active power / speed combinations, and veteran leadership?

Again, it's fine if you don't like him, but don't suddenly act ignorant of how salaries work in MLB, and also don't suddenly act ignorant of Cam's career value and leadership. You're smarter than that.

 

Radio, I'm not going to go as far as Brewhawk, but it's hard to ignore that Cameron has really sucked the last month-plus.

0-5 today with 4 Ks, abysmal numbers with RISP.

I understand your points, but you can't blame Brewers fans for being a little agitated with him at the moment. Not only did he fail to get a bunt down, he popped up to first on a terrible pitch with the bases loaded and one out today.

He has been a pretty big rally-killer for well over a month now. I don't think he's a bad center fielder, but I can't say I'm a big Mike Cameron fan at the moment.

That F-cking As-hole is 6th in All-Star voting for outfielders right now.  6th!  Unbelieveable how overrated that f-cking albatross is.

brewhawk:

stix:

radio silence:

brewhawk:

I don't know how some of you can still turn a blind eye to how badly this overpaid POS is hurting the team right now.

 

 

The same way you turn a blind eye to his entire performance, and only cite one poor aspect of his performance.

Cameron's overall production is slightly above average, he's slightly above average for CF, and he's batting average or slightly above average in the 5th and 6th spot. He is also batting well above average with bases empty, and just around average with men on base. His defense is pretty decent, and he's a veteran leader.

It's fine if you don't like the way he plays the game, just say he's not your type of player. But you're lying if you're calling him either overrated or overpaid. What type of salary do you expect for a veteran centerfielder that plays good defense and hits average or better, while also featuring one of the best active power / speed combinations, and veteran leadership?

Again, it's fine if you don't like him, but don't suddenly act ignorant of how salaries work in MLB, and also don't suddenly act ignorant of Cam's career value and leadership. You're smarter than that.

 

Radio, I'm not going to go as far as Brewhawk, but it's hard to ignore that Cameron has really sucked the last month-plus.

0-5 today with 4 Ks, abysmal numbers with RISP.

I understand your points, but you can't blame Brewers fans for being a little agitated with him at the moment. Not only did he fail to get a bunt down, he popped up to first on a terrible pitch with the bases loaded and one out today.

He has been a pretty big rally-killer for well over a month now. I don't think he's a bad center fielder, but I can't say I'm a big Mike Cameron fan at the moment.

That F-cking As-hole is 6th in All-Star voting for outfielders right now.  6th!  Unbelieveable how overrated that f-cking albatross is.

 

Why would you bring that up? There are Brewers grossly under performing and are in the All-star running (see Jason Kendall 4th, Bill Hall 5th, and JJ Hardy 3rd, who were/are close to the top of AS voting even Rickie Weeks is still 3rd). Never cite All star voting, since it is just a popularity contest, it has very little meaning positive nor negative. 

UWWhitewaterGrad:

The strikezone doesn't change when a batter bends over.  That pitch was belt-high.  That was a strike.  Again, the interpretation of the zone is what is killing this aspect of the game.

 

But it can confuse an umpire when a batter does that .  Combine this w/ Kendall catching the ball above his own eyes and it makes it a tougher call.  These things factor in as to why I think that pitch is going to be called a ball more often than folks on this board want to admit.  I agree w/ Radio- if they have the technology to take the guessing out of the ball and strike calls they should use it.  As long as you have human beings making the calls things that shouldn't factor in will.  Of course for the millionth time it shouldn't have come down to the human element deciding a borderline pitch.  The Brewers had the Cubs on the ropes over and over and couldn't knock them out.