shipitdear:

 Pt - great post.  Just great.  Agree w/ 99% of it.  However, if they bring in a new GM I have to believe McCarthy would lose his job too.

Agreed... I'd probably keep him on for a year if I was the new GM (only because of his work w/ QB's)... I kind of think the blame goes number one to TT, Number two to some key assistants and then MM third....JMO

prime311:

 Eh well, TT's made his fair share of mistakes, but he also cleaned up what was a disastrous cap problem, found a franchise QB, positioned the Packers with great cap flexibility, and has actually done remarkably well in trades and free agency when hes chosen to do them.  I think the situation could be a lot worse.  I'd love to bring in a guy who is going to find the perfect coach and do constantly well in drafting, but the greater likelihood is that whoever we bring in will be worse.  For every Ron Wolf there are 5 Matt Millens.  I just don't think TT's done poorly, or poorly enough to be fired, and I certainly don't like leaving what is a pretty good nucleus of players in the hands of an unknown GM.  MM on the other hand I am quickly souring on.  Thats my opinion anyway. 

Niether one of them are going anywhere after this season, so the discussion is moot for now.

Well Stated CalValley. And the bottom line is production and T has not produced results. Entering this year there were 28 GM in the league with at least 1 year exp and TT ranked 19 in winning % and 23rd in % of seasons in the playoffs. Currently at 4-3 it does not look like he is going to increase his NFL rank in either this year. People keep claiming all the good he has done with the cap, and finding young talent, finding a new franchise QB, etc, etc. But the bottom line is again production and when your GM is producing in the bottom third of the league he needs to be fired. Its just that simple.

ptisme:

So you're happy w/ mediocrity?  What happened to the spirit of change? 

 

Never said I was happy with mediocrity.  If this team doesn't show improvement then TT will need to be shown the door.  I'd like to see what a new coach could do with the same players.

 

ptisme:

Name me this nucleus?  We have 3 nice young players on this team: Rodgers, Jennings and Matthews... The rest are either not developing or getting up there as we look forward...

 

 What do you want me to do, name all the young Packer players i think could start elsewhere?  Its a fairly long list.  Of course, young and strong are relative terms so what I consider young and strong might vary from what you do. 

 

ptisme:

shipitdear:

 Pt - great post.  Just great.  Agree w/ 99% of it.  However, if they bring in a new GM I have to believe McCarthy would lose his job too.

Agreed... I'd probably keep him on for a year if I was the new GM (only because of his work w/ QB's)... I kind of think the blame goes number one to TT, Number two to some key assistants and then MM third....JMO

Not at the point yet to fire anyone. But if the current trend continues and the Pack finishes out of the playoffs, that will change. I personally think that if there's a purge, it absolutely has to include the HC. This is based mostly on the stupid penalty/lack of discipline issue. To be perfecly honest with you, I think MM is more culpable than TT at this point. I keep hearing things like "this line is not untalented, it's a matter of technique" that tell me we have major coaching issues. All that aside, if you hire a new GM, you've got to let him choose his own HC. Switching back to reality, they're both signed through 2012. That's just too much bad paper. If, and that's a mighty big if, the Pack does opt for change, I think it will only be the coaching staff, with TT remaining to choose his own HC. That way, they eat MM's contract, but not TT's.

Nice post, ptisme. Timely and good discussion. I was tiring of the "this will be turned around. The season is young. All will be addressed in the off-season. Give the drafts some time". Now comments like "things will change after this season" are starting to creep in. Tired of it all. Tired of the misplaced optimism and acceptance of mediocrity.

bp:

Nice post, ptisme. Timely and good discussion. I was tiring of the "this will be turned around. The season is young. All will be addressed in the off-season. Give the drafts some time". Now comments like "things will change after this season" are starting to creep in. Tired of it all. Tired of the misplaced optimism and acceptance of mediocrity.

Sorry bp...but no one here is accepting mediocrity. That is ridiculous. Just because somebody isn't calling for everyone and their uncle to be fired doesn't mean they accept mediocrity. That is a joke.

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

swany11:

bp:

Nice post, ptisme. Timely and good discussion. I was tiring of the "this will be turned around. The season is young. All will be addressed in the off-season. Give the drafts some time". Now comments like "things will change after this season" are starting to creep in. Tired of it all. Tired of the misplaced optimism and acceptance of mediocrity.

Sorry bp...but no one here is accepting mediocrity. That is ridiculous. Just because somebody isn't calling for everyone and their uncle to be fired doesn't mean they accept mediocrity. That is a joke.

 

If we finish 8 and 8 or worse I think the head coach will go.  This was the year for his young offensive linemen to step up, and they have fallen flat to this point.  Players or coaches??  Easier to change coaches.  I hope I'm wrong and we finish 10 and 6.

shipitdear:

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

the 2nd half of the season looks tougher. the pack don't get to play the browns, lions, rams and bucs all again.

shipitdear:

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

If that happens, I really think you'd find most of the posters on here in that same boat along with you, bp and others.  Myself, I gave this regime a mulligan last year, coming off the NFC Championship berth and breaking in a new QB.  Not so much this year.

I think the idealogical gap between most on this board is probably pretty close right now, but we'd just like to see how this year plays out before rendering a final verdict. 

shipitdear:

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

I agree 100%. But it isn't the off-season quite yet.

swany11:

shipitdear:

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

I agree 100%. But it isn't the off-season quite yet.

Listen, if they can win a couple games not many are expecting them to win at this point and somehow get to 10 w's I'll be quite pleased (and shocked).  I just don't see how it happens without an OL. 

shipitdear:

swany11:

shipitdear:

 Swany, I don't think many sane Packer fans would want to fire TT, MM or anyone else today.  We're 4-3 and have as just as good a shot at a wildcard as several other NFC teams.  BUT at the end of the season if we're looking up at 8 or even 9 wins and we're home for the playoffs (AGAIN), and sitting on tons of cap space, then at that point Packer Nation should want and DEMAND heads to roll.  Murphy should be inundated w/ letters and phone calls.  Thompson will have had 5 years to build a winner.  That is a lifetime in this day and age in professional sports. 

I agree 100%. But it isn't the off-season quite yet.

Listen, if they can win a couple games not many are expecting them to win at this point and somehow get to 10 w's I'll be quite pleased (and shocked).  I just don't see how it happens without an OL. 

Crazier things have happened. I was hoping a change in play calling would help alleviate the OL problems, but I haven't seen that yet. We need to make teams pay for pinning back their ears every passing play.

homebrewpack:

ptisme:

shipitdear:

 Pt - great post.  Just great.  Agree w/ 99% of it.  However, if they bring in a new GM I have to believe McCarthy would lose his job too.

Agreed... I'd probably keep him on for a year if I was the new GM (only because of his work w/ QB's)... I kind of think the blame goes number one to TT, Number two to some key assistants and then MM third....JMO

Not at the point yet to fire anyone. But if the current trend continues and the Pack finishes out of the playoffs, that will change. I personally think that if there's a purge, it absolutely has to include the HC. This is based mostly on the stupid penalty/lack of discipline issue. To be perfecly honest with you, I think MM is more culpable than TT at this point. I keep hearing things like "this line is not untalented, it's a matter of technique" that tell me we have major coaching issues. All that aside, if you hire a new GM, you've got to let him choose his own HC. Switching back to reality, they're both signed through 2012. That's just too much bad paper. If, and that's a mighty big if, the Pack does opt for change, I think it will only be the coaching staff, with TT remaining to choose his own HC. That way, they eat MM's contract, but not TT's.

How are we going to attract the HC we want when perhaps he may have some concerns that he'll have a GM that won't provide him the talent he needs either thru the draft or FA?  I think you fire the GM and let him decide whether he wants to keep MM or hire someone else....