brewhawk:

cpk1994:

alffan:

What a happy day today. Just got back from traveling and someone e-mailed me the news. Did they move Christmas to November 6?  Cameron, Weathers and Hardy gone, $15 million+ saved, and the Brewers pick up some speed, and now have dollars to get real pitching.

I have to say, Doug has made a couple of good moves to start the offseason.

This is a good first step. I do believe Hardy is going to do well for someone, but he wasn't right for Milwaukee.

Somehow, I don't believe Carlos Gomez becomes the Brewers starting CF in 2010. I think we'll see the Brewers still search for another OF. 

Wow, someone is hitting the crackpipe hard. You do realize that the speed doesnt matter becuase Macha DOESN'T RUN HIS PLAYERS, don't you?

Also because he doesn't get on base very often.

The more important point.

brewhas28:

alffan:

Macha is going to HAVE to run with this team. They can't swing for the fences.

With that said, I still think you go out and find a banger to be your 4th OF who hits you 20 HR's - and I'm sure they can do that for $5-$7 million.

Also, don't be surprised if this is a bit of a game by the Brewers to send a message to Cameron and his agent that they'd like him back, just not at that outrageous $10 million salary.

Cameron for $5 or $6 mil makes a lot of sense ...

Hmm. I find it hard to believe that a 4th OF would hit 20 HR's.

Actually don't be suprised if this means Cameron will not be back.

Melvin basically said it.

Cameron is GONE. It's over, for better or worse.

I really hope he enjoys the speed with which Gomez turns back to the dugout after a weak groundout. That should be fun to watch.

Einsteinhood:

radio silence:

I am upset that this is turning the team away from becoming an elite offensive squad, and for what, $15 million worth of pitching moves in a market that features zero impact arms?

Radio, that just isn't true.

Lackey is very much an impact arm. After that it gets much sketchier, with a mixed bag of guys who have been hurt but impact when healthy (Harden, Bedard, Duscherer) and mediocrites (Washburn, Myers) but I just cannot see how you can dispute that Lackey is an impact arm.

Lackey is going to be a 31-year old pitcher who has not pitched 180 innings or started 30 games since 2007. Now, he has pitched well the last two seasons, but he has also started the last two seasons on the DL.

Besides, even if we were to grant that Lackey is an impact arm, that marks, what, one impact arm?

I think Lackey is exactly the type of arm the Crew needs to stay away from: aging, injury-shortened seasons, and his best seasons behind him.

radio silence:

Einsteinhood:

radio silence:

I am upset that this is turning the team away from becoming an elite offensive squad, and for what, $15 million worth of pitching moves in a market that features zero impact arms?

Radio, that just isn't true.

Lackey is very much an impact arm. After that it gets much sketchier, with a mixed bag of guys who have been hurt but impact when healthy (Harden, Bedard, Duscherer) and mediocrites (Washburn, Myers) but I just cannot see how you can dispute that Lackey is an impact arm.

Lackey is going to be a 31-year old pitcher who has not pitched 180 innings or started 30 games since 2007. Now, he has pitched well the last two seasons, but he has also started the last two seasons on the DL.

Besides, even if we were to grant that Lackey is an impact arm, that marks, what, one impact arm?

I think Lackey is exactly the type of arm the Crew needs to stay away from: aging, injury-shortened seasons, and his best seasons behind him.

Quite possibly, but I'm not at all sure that is true, especially the part about his best seasons being behind him.

Did you read the scouting report I posted on him in that thread? Law is usually quick to write guys off due to age and injury, but he doesn't do that there.

I'm not saying it would be a great idea or even a good risk, but it may be the only chance to put together a great team in the next two seasons, so I think it at least needs to be considered.

 Taken in isolation, I don't find much to like about this deal. The detractors of the move have catalogued my concerns throughout this thread, so I won't recapitulate that litany. However, this deal might make more sense if it is part of a larger strategy that has yet to play out.

The obvious corresponding move is not to bring Cameron back -- that amounts to the salary savings that has been discussed here  (although that amount might not be as great given Gomez's Super Two status). Apparently Doug will use the budget room for pitching, but perhaps it is not via the obvious route (free agency); maybe he is looking to make a deal with a team interested in trimming salary? It could be that a team seeking salary relief would take a number of prospects combined with a cheaper vet (e.g. Hart) in order to get rid of an expensive (albeit talented) pitcher.

As losing Cam and Hardy while adding Gomez amounts to less offense, perhaps there is another, deeper plan here: Maybe Melvin is clearing budget not just for pitching but to make a move to extend Fielder. I wonder about this because I don't see much offense for MKE after next season if they let Prince walk. There are few real offensive difference makers in the upper minors, and other than Braun, there are serious production questions at the MLB level without Prince. If Melvin is seeing the same thing, maybe he not only wants to acquire an arm or two, but have enough room to make a credible offer to secure the middle of the line up beyond 2010.

crichar3:

As losing Cam and Hardy while adding Gomez amounts to less offense, perhaps there is another, deeper plan here: Maybe Melvin is clearing budget not just for pitching but to make a move to extend Fielder. I wonder about this because I don't see much offense for MKE after next season if they let Prince walk. There are few real offensive difference makers in the upper minors, and other than Braun, there are serious production questions at the MLB level without Prince. If Melvin is seeing the same thing, maybe he not only wants to acquire an arm or two, but have enough room to make a credible offer to secure the middle of the line up beyond 2010.

Good point.  With this idea, I have gone from thinking there's zero chance in signing Fielder, to "maybe there's a slight chance."

The reason I think this holds some merit is that Melvin could make it clear that the Brewers are serious about paying him a good salary AND having other talent around him in terms of pitching and hitting.  If the team still had an $85mil payroll while offering Prince the extension, perhaps that might show to Fielder that if they pay him, they won't be able to pay anyone else.  With more money for Prince AND others, that could make a solid point in persuading Prince to think about Melvin's offer.

 Why would Melvin need to clear major salary this year to extend Prince Fielder?

I know he surely would get some raise over what he's getting this year, but it's close to that sort of difference.

I remain completely convinced that they will not, can not and should not resign Fielder after 2011.

crichar3:

If Melvin is seeing the same thing, maybe he not only wants to acquire an arm or two, but have enough room to make a credible offer to secure the middle of the line up beyond 2010.

Fielder is under team control until after 2011.

I like the trade.

Gomez is not T. Gwynn.

I remember Mets people talk about Gomez, and there was little doubt in their minds he was going to be special.

He has power and it developing. His swing isn't sloppy and slow. He has quick hands and wrist, but his problem is pitch selection.

Additionally he was rushed to the bigs in New York City the Mets, and then part of the biggest trade in Twins history.

Last year when there was this upswell to bring Melky Cabrera in I was against it because he struck me as a players with a pretty low ceiling and a poor defensive CF to boot. Gomez has an enormous ceiling and maybe playing out of the spotlight; not the next Mays in New York, and not the superstar hot shot prospect in the Minnesota he may have space to develop into a player.

Again he has a solid swing. People are not blowing the bat out of hands with fast balls. He has pop in his bat and will hit for some power.

I hate nothing more then a guy who runs fast and does nothing else. This is not that guy.

There is baseball ability in this guys frame.

I am much more optimistic then some of the people I almost always agree with around here.

Einsteinhood:

crichar3:

If Melvin is seeing the same thing, maybe he not only wants to acquire an arm or two, but have enough room to make a credible offer to secure the middle of the line up beyond 2010.

Fielder is under team control until after 2011.

 

My guess is that without an extension, Prince gets dealt next off-season. Therefore, I think as a practical matter he is really under team control just for this coming season.

Moreover, the longer they wait to sign Prince I believe the more unlikely it is that they actually will. In other words, Melvin might be clearing salary this off-season for more than just pitching -- he might be positioning the team payroll so that he can offer Prince an extension in March, before Prince can do more to drive up his price even further.

Now, as to your contention that they should not extend him, that is a different matter, one that I completely understand. Heredity is probably working against Fielder, so I think there are risks in keeping him past age 30 -- I suspect injury might limit him, thus lowering his production. But I can see the argument for keeping him, too: Dude is a draw at the gate and very popular with the fans -- attendance matters in MKE. Coupled with Braun, they provide a potent punch in the middle of a line up that just lost a 20+ homer a year SS and is about to lose a 25ish HR a year CF. I don't think they can count on Hart, McGhee Weeks to pick up that slack, as Corey has been inconsistent, McGhee might be a fluke and Weeks is beginning to look like an injury waiting to happen. The Brewers need some pop in their line up and there is precious little of that on the farm. Like it or not, Prince might be a "must sign" for this team.

 

crichar3:

My guess is that without an extension, Prince gets dealt next off-season. Therefore, I think as a practical matter he is really under team control just for this coming season.

Moreover, the longer they wait to sign Prince I believe the more unlikely it is that they actually will. In other words, Melvin might be clearing salary this off-season for more than just pitching -- he might be positioning the team payroll so that he can offer Prince an extension in March, before Prince can do more to drive up his price even further.

Now, as to your contention that they should not extend him, that is a different matter, one that I completely understand. Heredity is probably working against Fielder, so I think there are risks in keeping him past age 30 -- I suspect injury might limit him, thus lowering his production. But I can see the argument for keeping him, too: Dude is a draw at the gate and very popular with the fans -- attendance matters in MKE. Coupled with Braun, they provide a potent punch in the middle of a line up that just lost a 20+ homer a year SS and is about to lose a 25ish HR a year CF. I don't think they can count on Hart, McGhee Weeks to pick up that slack, as Corey has been inconsistent, McGhee might be a fluke and Weeks is beginning to look like an injury waiting to happen. The Brewers need some pop in their line up and there is precious little of that on the farm. Like it or not, Prince might be a "must sign" for this team.

On the first point, I don't think that is a foregone conclusion that they will deal him next year. I can see plausible scenarios where they keep him to the day he is free to walk, where they deal him at either of the next two deadlines or next offseason.

On the second point, I just do not think that they are doing this in any way to keep Prince. They'll make a token offer (or at least talk about talking) this offseason, but it's not going to go anywhere.

On the third point, I understand the fear of losing him, and it's going to be one of the darkest days in franchise history when he puts on another teams uniform in a presser for the first time, but the alternative it much, much worse. To me, he basically already is a DH (though he did a good job improving his D last offseason coming in) and he will need to be one by the time he gets to be thirty no question in my mind. Add in the fact that players of his, ahem, body type have a very strong trend to major decline and injury issues in their early 30's (Ortiz, Vaugh, Papa Fielder) and the cost and I just cannot see any way shape or form it makes sense for this team to keep him long term for the money he'll command. The Brewers cannot afford to sign a player out of fear of what happens if he leaves, they will need to make the best possible decision and then reassess at that point and decide if it's time to completely rebuild or if there is a viable way to contention without the man.

Tom Powers: Clueless Gomez a bigger risk than slumping Hardy

 Thank god Cameron is finally gone! Sooooo sweeeeet. The anti-clutch has left the building!  At least Gomez fits in with the clueless instincts, and strikeout tendencies of the rest of the Milwaukee Brewers. The Brewer basepaths are going to be ridiculous next year.

Hardy wasn't worth crap at this point. You can't complain too much over anything we got in return. At least Gomez won't run slow and goofy like Hardy.

brewhawk:

Tom Powers: Clueless Gomez a bigger risk than slumping Hardy

By Tom Powers

Updated: 11/06/2009 11:41:23 PM CST

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NEW YORK - OCTOBER 09: Carlos Gomez #22 of the Minnesota Twins runs against the New York Yankees in Game Two of the ALDS during the 2009 MLB Playoffs at Yankee Stadium on October 9, 2009 in the Bronx borough of New York City. (Photo by Jim McIsaac/Getty Images) (Getty Images)

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• Twins
• Twins' trade fixes two areas

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The Twins have traded a toolbox without a key for a mystery.

Carlos Gomez has talent, the greatest of which is raw speed. He also has the baseball instincts of an Icelandic grade-schooler. As wonderful as he was to watch play center field, Gomez was a disaster everywhere else. He was clueless in the batter's box. And he was prone to base-running gaffes, one of which probably cost the Twins a playoff game against the Yankees.

If nothing else, his departure to the Milwaukee Brewers will add years to the life of Twins first-base coach Jerry White. Poor Jerry had the unenviable task of trying to keep Go-Go from getting picked off. That was tough sledding.

J.J. Hardy either is an all-star or a bum, depending on which year you check the stats. After a couple of outstanding seasons at shortstop, he actually wound up back in Triple-A last season. When he's right, he can play Gold Glove-quality shortstop and hit 20-plus home runs. Hardy has a terrific arm. When he's not right, he can go into seemingly endless batting slumps.

Perhaps the Twins coaches can help him become more consistent. They could not do that with Gomez. Although they said all the right things about him last season, it was clear that they felt as though they were talking to a cinder block.

What's interesting about this trade is that it says volumes about the direction in which the Twins are going. Obviously, Orlando Cabrera is out at shortstop. Delmon Young is the everyday left fielder, for better

or for worse. Denard Span is the full-time center fielder. And Michael Cuddyer, who has a $10.5 million option for 2011, probably is part of the Twins' longer-term future.

It's difficult to imagine the Twins getting rid of a young outfielder if they weren't planning on having Cuddyer around for a couple more years. They have some outfield talent in the minors, but it probably isn't going to be ready by 2011.

Also, I'll give general manager Bill Smith credit for doing something. Yeah, it

Milwaukee Brewers shortstop J.J. Hardy can't come up with a ball hit by Houston Astros' J.R. Towles during the seventh inning of a baseball game Friday, Sept. 18, 2009, in Milwaukee. (AP Photo/Morry Gash) (Morry Gash)

looks bad to get rid of the remnants of the Johan Santana trade. But Hardy still could make that trade a success. In any event, if something isn't working, it's better to move on to something else.

Which brings us to Young. Up until the stretch run, he appeared to be an unmitigated disaster, and I'd have bet the farm that he was out of here. But he hit very well when inserted in the lineup every day as the Twins made their run. He's still a different bird, but Smith now seems more committed to him than ever. It's a gamble.

This trade fills a need for Minnesota. Current shortstop Cabrera is eligible for free agency. He was a solid performer and good in the clubhouse while with the Twins. But age has robbed him of his range in the field. Plus, his arm has grown weak. Experience can compensate for only so much.

Perhaps the Brewers will find a way to harness Gomez's ability. As for Hardy, at least he has done it before. It's a given that he is capable of competing at a high level. The Twins should do all right with this deal.

Tom Powers can be reached at tpowers@pioneerpress.com.

Thanks for posting.

That is one of the most unprofessional articles written by a MSM outlet I can remember reading. I saw better in the Boston Herrald and New York Post, and that is saying something.

Kinda sad.

Jim Breen:

radio silence:

 Okay, so I slept on it, and I have a positive spin: the Brewers' defense will be fantastic up the middle, and that will hopefully help to rebuild the pitching staff.

+1

Defensively, we should be fantastic up the middle. You are quite right about that.

I'm just amazed that Hardy's value is only worth Gomez. I thought the trade happened to early. Why not wait and see what shakes out. I'm sure other GM's knew Melvin had to move Hardy because of Escobar so that hurt his value. But making the first move to get a CF surprised me unless, like someone else said, its to keep salary low in CF to make a pitching move. Unless Cameron getting slower in CF, they needed to get quicker to make up for a poor fielding LF.