Brewers Message Board

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

brewhawk — Wed, 07 May 2008 05:26:52 GMT

Melvin's skills of unearthing somethng useful out of what appears to be a MLB turd have no use for the Brewers any more. They only way to improve is to replace mediocre players with plus players in some spots. In fact, I think it creates a problem in that they hang on to guys like Turnbow or Bill Hall too long, because they've been so happy just to have spots filled with Legit MLB'ers in the past..

Time to drop the Melvin/Yost combo, give the job to Jack Z. so they don't lose him, and hire him a good assistant who can work the professional end of things, and take the team to the next level.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

radio silence — Wed, 07 May 2008 05:04:10 GMT

rockadocious2:

Fair enough.

The main point that I was trying to make is that as good as Melvin and Jack have been in finding, developing and trading for position players, they have been almost just as incompetent when it comes to pitchers. Not only have we not drafted and developed many good ones (save for Yo and Jeffress) we seem to be on the losing end of trades that involves pitchers. (Bush, Davis, etc.)

There just seems to be many that think Melvin is a god (I think he's good) because of a few of the things that he has done. However, now we have a bigger picture of all that he has done and it looks a lot more mediocre. His drafts have been good, but that is primarily a byproduct of JackZ. His trades have been all over the place from excellent (Sexson) to average (Lee) to ugly (Fatstrada). The Overbay deal doesn't look so great right now either because, again, he missed on the pitchers (what happened Zach Jackson?)

I just wonder if he has the eye/knack for pitching that he does for hitting.

I pretty much agree with everything here.

Melvin is no god, but he indeed is a good GM.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

rockadocious2 — Tue, 06 May 2008 22:16:07 GMT

radio silence:

rockadocious2:

Why is it that Davis, Eveland, JDLR and others have had more success under different teams? I understand these guys aren't world beaters, but I have not seen the Brewers be sufficiently competent in getting the most out of the pitchers that they have had here. Especially starters, and especially their own guys on the farm. Yes, we were successful with Kolb and Turnbow, but those didn't last. We almost immediately wrecked Rogers arm, and save for Gallardo, have not developed any quality starters over quite a time now.

I would in no way have Melvin's head for this, just pointing out some instances where he has made mistakes. If most of those mistakes are of the pitching variety, then you have a trend. The Brewers cannot be a successful organization without developing their own top quality pitchers. Who knows, the problem may also lie with Maddux or the developmenal staff. If it is, though, Melvin must recognize it and make a change.

I think you're raising two separate points here without distinguishing them.

(1) Comparing pitchers the Brewers have drafted (Rogers, Gallardo,. Eveland)

vs.

(2) Comparing pitchers the Brewers have not drafted (Davis, JDLR, Turnbow, Kolb)

Those are two different types of player development that require different analyses.

First, regarding Davis, the Brewers definitely got better usage out of him than the Dbacks have -- Davis' 2003-2005 as a whole cannot be compared to what Davis did for Arizona in 2007. 2006 was a thoroughly mediocre year for Davis, and although that level of production seems welcome in our rotation now, Melvin didn't really make a mistake by trading Davis after a mediocre year. That was what it was -- we needed a catcher, and although that move backfired, Melvin knew what it took to get a catcher.

I think it's fair to say that the Brewers got very good and important usage from Davis as a stopgap during the development years.

Second, regarding JDLR, how long were the Brewers supposed to work with him? He had one decent year out of two and a half seasons with the Crew, and he's not exactly a young pitcher -- he's now 27 years old. What do you think the likelihood is of someone of JDLR's caliber breaking out and pitching several consistently good seasons after 27?

Third, Eveland is probably a legitimate beef in the development department, but then again, when he was called up the Brewers were in the midst of shifting around bullpen slots, and I distinctly remember Eveland being billed not as anything spectacular, but as a fine option for a bullpen stopgap. People forget that he pitched at a better level in the bullpen in 2005 before moving to the rotation in 2006. Perhaps that was the Brewers' mistake; but, I am hard-pressed to criticize Melvin now for a bullpen move he needed to make in 2005.

Now, Eveland is much younger than JDLR (24), and his development now indicates that perhaps he could have been a low rotation starter, but then again, who knows if that would have happened during his tenure in Milwaukee's organization. Again, even if Melvin's Estrada trade looks bad now, I'm a little hard pressed to fully criticize him because at the time we needed a catcher and if throwing in a young left-hander that struggled in the rotation (to that point) was necessary, well, so be it.

Fair enough.

The main point that I was trying to make is that as good as Melvin and Jack have been in finding, developing and trading for position players, they have been almost just as incompetent when it comes to pitchers. Not only have we not drafted and developed many good ones (save for Yo and Jeffress) we seem to be on the losing end of trades that involves pitchers. (Bush, Davis, etc.)

There just seems to be many that think Melvin is a god (I think he's good) because of a few of the things that he has done. However, now we have a bigger picture of all that he has done and it looks a lot more mediocre. His drafts have been good, but that is primarily a byproduct of JackZ. His trades have been all over the place from excellent (Sexson) to average (Lee) to ugly (Fatstrada). The Overbay deal doesn't look so great right now either because, again, he missed on the pitchers (what happened Zach Jackson?)

I just wonder if he has the eye/knack for pitching that he does for hitting.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

82 Brew — Tue, 06 May 2008 21:40:02 GMT

brewhawk:

82 Brew:

I am glad those guys have found a way to help another team, but those guys stunk here. Some guys turn it around with a new team, that is just the way it goes some times.

Coaching?

Could be, but MLB history is littered with guys that had a resurgence with other teams after being cast away from their original or previous team.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

brewhawk — Tue, 06 May 2008 19:43:34 GMT

82 Brew:

I am glad those guys have found a way to help another team, but those guys stunk here. Some guys turn it around with a new team, that is just the way it goes some times.

Coaching?

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

radio silence — Tue, 06 May 2008 19:27:44 GMT

rockadocious2:

Why is it that Davis, Eveland, JDLR and others have had more success under different teams? I understand these guys aren't world beaters, but I have not seen the Brewers be sufficiently competent in getting the most out of the pitchers that they have had here. Especially starters, and especially their own guys on the farm. Yes, we were successful with Kolb and Turnbow, but those didn't last. We almost immediately wrecked Rogers arm, and save for Gallardo, have not developed any quality starters over quite a time now.

I would in no way have Melvin's head for this, just pointing out some instances where he has made mistakes. If most of those mistakes are of the pitching variety, then you have a trend. The Brewers cannot be a successful organization without developing their own top quality pitchers. Who knows, the problem may also lie with Maddux or the developmenal staff. If it is, though, Melvin must recognize it and make a change.

I think you're raising two separate points here without distinguishing them.

(1) Comparing pitchers the Brewers have drafted (Rogers, Gallardo,. Eveland)

vs.

(2) Comparing pitchers the Brewers have not drafted (Davis, JDLR, Turnbow, Kolb)

Those are two different types of player development that require different analyses.

First, regarding Davis, the Brewers definitely got better usage out of him than the Dbacks have -- Davis' 2003-2005 as a whole cannot be compared to what Davis did for Arizona in 2007. 2006 was a thoroughly mediocre year for Davis, and although that level of production seems welcome in our rotation now, Melvin didn't really make a mistake by trading Davis after a mediocre year. That was what it was -- we needed a catcher, and although that move backfired, Melvin knew what it took to get a catcher.

I think it's fair to say that the Brewers got very good and important usage from Davis as a stopgap during the development years.

Second, regarding JDLR, how long were the Brewers supposed to work with him? He had one decent year out of two and a half seasons with the Crew, and he's not exactly a young pitcher -- he's now 27 years old. What do you think the likelihood is of someone of JDLR's caliber breaking out and pitching several consistently good seasons after 27?

Third, Eveland is probably a legitimate beef in the development department, but then again, when he was called up the Brewers were in the midst of shifting around bullpen slots, and I distinctly remember Eveland being billed not as anything spectacular, but as a fine option for a bullpen stopgap. People forget that he pitched at a better level in the bullpen in 2005 before moving to the rotation in 2006. Perhaps that was the Brewers' mistake; but, I am hard-pressed to criticize Melvin now for a bullpen move he needed to make in 2005.

Now, Eveland is much younger than JDLR (24), and his development now indicates that perhaps he could have been a low rotation starter, but then again, who knows if that would have happened during his tenure in Milwaukee's organization. Again, even if Melvin's Estrada trade looks bad now, I'm a little hard pressed to fully criticize him because at the time we needed a catcher and if throwing in a young left-hander that struggled in the rotation (to that point) was necessary, well, so be it.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

rockadocious2 — Tue, 06 May 2008 19:04:31 GMT

82 Brew:

rockadocious2:

Melvin has shipped out more than a few pitchers who were decent enough to make it in the bigs without getting much of anything in return. Davis, Eveland, Thatcher, JDLR, and I know there is one or two others who could have helped us over the last two years if we had stuch with them and had the development staff to get their best stuff out of them. I know none of them are stars, but if you look at who we are throwing out now in our 4 and 5 spots and how mediocre the bullpen has been the last few years it sure would have been worth keepins some of these guys around. Even the Bush/Jackson/Linebrink type guys he has been able to bring in have been uninspiring in the least. Also, for all the great work we have done in drafting and developing position players, we sure haven't done it on the pitching end. That is Melvin's biggest flaw as our GM so far. Between that and sticking with Yost he has pretty much undone all the good things he has done for this organization.

No one wanted Eveland around at the end of his time here and JDLR, everyone wanted to drive him to the airport. I am glad those guys have found a way to help another team, but those guys stunk here. Some guys turn it around with a new team, that is just the way it goes some times. I would take CV and Parra anyday over the guys you mentioned. I hated watching Vargas and Davis pitch, talk about getting in a 45 minute nap without missing the Brewers hit in that inning.

Why is it that Davis, Eveland, JDLR and others have had more success under different teams? I understand these guys aren't world beaters, but I have not seen the Brewers be sufficiently competent in getting the most out of the pitchers that they have had here. Especially starters, and especially their own guys on the farm. Yes, we were successful with Kolb and Turnbow, but those didn't last. We almost immediately wrecked Rogers arm, and save for Gallardo, have not developed any quality starters over quite a time now.

I would in no way have Melvin's head for this, just pointing out some instances where he has made mistakes. If most of those mistakes are of the pitching variety, then you have a trend. The Brewers cannot be a successful organization without developing their own top quality pitchers. Who knows, the problem may also lie with Maddux or the developmenal staff. If it is, though, Melvin must recognize it and make a change.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

crichar3 — Tue, 06 May 2008 19:02:46 GMT

brewguru:
Hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn't it?

You could have stopped right there as far as I am concerned. This revisionist critique is silly. All the guys mentioned were, to varying degrees, not lamented when they were dealt. To come back to this now, when Eveland is doing OK, ignores the situation as it presented itself at the time.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

brewguru — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:55:42 GMT

rockadocious2:

Melvin has shipped out more than a few pitchers who were decent enough to make it in the bigs without getting much of anything in return. Davis, Eveland, Thatcher, JDLR, and I know there is one or two others who could have helped us over the last two years if we had stuch with them and had the development staff to get their best stuff out of them. I know none of them are stars, but if you look at who we are throwing out now in our 4 and 5 spots and how mediocre the bullpen has been the last few years it sure would have been worth keepins some of these guys around. Even the Bush/Jackson/Linebrink type guys he has been able to bring in have been uninspiring in the least. Also, for all the great work we have done in drafting and developing position players, we sure haven't done it on the pitching end. That is Melvin's biggest flaw as our GM so far. Between that and sticking with Yost he has pretty much undone all the good things he has done for this organization.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn't it?

Davis is a #4 starter, which is a dime a dozen. Sure, he'd be better than Villanueva or Bush RIGHT NOW, but you have to be able to see what the youngsters will do.

Eveland was a throw-in in the trade from Milwaukee to Arizona and then a throw-in when he went from Arizona to Oakland. 2 years after the fact, it's easy to bemoan his loss. At the time, not so much.

De La Rosa is now with Colorado. When he was here, everyone hated him. We got a needed part for him in '06 in Tony Graffanino.

Does anyone know that Thatcher has a 6.75 ERA with San Diego this year? He has allowed 12 runs in 16 innings. Not to mention allowing 3 of 5 inherited runners to score. I haven't seen anybody bring that up this year. Wonder why?

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

82 Brew — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:31:23 GMT

rockadocious2:

Melvin has shipped out more than a few pitchers who were decent enough to make it in the bigs without getting much of anything in return. Davis, Eveland, Thatcher, JDLR, and I know there is one or two others who could have helped us over the last two years if we had stuch with them and had the development staff to get their best stuff out of them. I know none of them are stars, but if you look at who we are throwing out now in our 4 and 5 spots and how mediocre the bullpen has been the last few years it sure would have been worth keepins some of these guys around. Even the Bush/Jackson/Linebrink type guys he has been able to bring in have been uninspiring in the least. Also, for all the great work we have done in drafting and developing position players, we sure haven't done it on the pitching end. That is Melvin's biggest flaw as our GM so far. Between that and sticking with Yost he has pretty much undone all the good things he has done for this organization.

No one wanted Eveland around at the end of his time here and JDLR, everyone wanted to drive him to the airport. I am glad those guys have found a way to help another team, but those guys stunk here. Some guys turn it around with a new team, that is just the way it goes some times. I would take CV and Parra anyday over the guys you mentioned. I hated watching Vargas and Davis pitch, talk about getting in a 45 minute nap without missing the Brewers hit in that inning.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

rockadocious2 — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:25:53 GMT

Melvin has shipped out more than a few pitchers who were decent enough to make it in the bigs without getting much of anything in return. Davis, Eveland, Thatcher, JDLR, and I know there is one or two others who could have helped us over the last two years if we had stuch with them and had the development staff to get their best stuff out of them. I know none of them are stars, but if you look at who we are throwing out now in our 4 and 5 spots and how mediocre the bullpen has been the last few years it sure would have been worth keepins some of these guys around. Even the Bush/Jackson/Linebrink type guys he has been able to bring in have been uninspiring in the least. Also, for all the great work we have done in drafting and developing position players, we sure haven't done it on the pitching end. That is Melvin's biggest flaw as our GM so far. Between that and sticking with Yost he has pretty much undone all the good things he has done for this organization.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

CheapSeats440 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:48:49 GMT

klwillis45:

In 3 home starts his ERA is 0.92, in 4 road starts it's 4.98.

Who would have thought that a ballpark that is actually a cavernous football stadium with nowhere for the wind to blow out would turn a AAAA pitcher into Tom Glavine? Not me. Solution: Move the walls at Miller Park to 600 ft. and make all our pitchers super-prospects.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

klwillis45 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:45:41 GMT

In 3 home starts his ERA is 0.92, in 4 road starts it's 4.98.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

CheapSeats440 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:40:52 GMT

I wasnt a fan of him when he made his jump from AA to the majors, but I think that it was a huge mistake letting him go (in retrospect). I cant really blame Melvin for it, but Im certainly frustrated with it. Imagine how he would be if he had his sweet time to mature in AAA instead of coming up directly to the majors.

But I can honestly say I was calling for his head in 03 (I think it was) when he had an ERA above like 8. Meh, bad deal, but I realize it in retrospect so I cant fault the management.

Re: How about that Dana Eveland...

mikeyjay21 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:33:34 GMT

That was a bad trade, but as far as Eveland goes, he had a really poor year last year too. Considering how fed up everyone was with him in 2006, I can't believe he would still be here getting the kind of chance he's getting with Oakland in 2008. He was probably going to be shipped off somewhere eventually, and I doubt Melvin would've been able to flip him for anyone useful given his 06 and 07 performances.