brewcrew143:

pdevine22:

brewcrew143:

Daubs:

Bush to DL, Burns recalled

By Anthony Witrado of the Journal Sentinel

Jun. 23, 2009 4:35 p.m.  

Right-hander Dave Bush has been put on the disabled list with a tired arm.

The Brewers are calling up right-hander Mike Burns to start Thursday and Saturday's turn is still TBD.

This move comes after Bush lasted only three innings in his last start in Detroit. He is 0-3 with a 10.38 ERA in his last four starts and said his right arm has been fatigued at least since his start in Florida when he was dinged near the elbow with a line drive.

It isn't clear if that shot has anything to do with Bush not being able to recover to 100% by the time of his next starts in the rotation, but what is clear is the Brewers could no longer give Bush the ball and let him get hit and lose games with the team in the midst of a division race with the Cardinals and Cubs and Reds.

After his last start in Detroit, Bush said it has been frustrating because the trainers haven't been able to figure out why the arm isn't recovering. So rest is the next step. The Brewers discussed pushing Bush back a couple days and maybe starting him Saturday, but the problem is serious enough and severe enough that Bush wouldn't be ready by then either.

So he'll be placed on the disabled list and it will likely be 2-3 weeks before he's back, and he probably won't start again until after the all-star break.

Bush will do some light throwing while on the DL so he doesn't lose much strength, but his activity will be monitored closely and he won't do too much since this does seem like an injury that is going to require as much rest as possible.

Burns threw four scoreless innings in his only appearance with the Brewers this season before he was sent back down to Class AAA Nashville. He has thrown well in Nashville going 7-2 with a 2.55 ERA.

Bush's spot in the rotation, which Burns will occupy, will likely make four starts before Bush is back, and Saturday's spot in the rotation will make three starts.

Seth McClung is a likely candidate to make the start, but manager Ken Macha wouldn't say for sure who will get the ball. He did say no one in the bullpen will have to be saved as of tonight, but that doesn't mean they won't start to save an arm starting tomorrow. If that's the case, then the ball probably will go to McClung.  

McCLung has been the key to the bullpens success this year dont mess with that, send narveson down and call up dillard or chris cody to take the 5th starter role starting saturday

A starting pitcher is more important than a reliever.

True, but McClung isnt stretched out whatsoever, the last thing the brewers can afford right now is to have Seth only going 4-5 innings for a few games

True enough, but how many effective innings do you expect the minor league pitchers to give you? The real point is that the Brewers are in a pretty desperate situation right now as they face a difficult stretch in their schedule. None of the alternatives they have right now for starting pitching are likely to be successful. They either let McClung start and hope that he can give them 5 good innings and use a minor leaguer to take his innings out of the bullpen, or they start minor leaguers and hope they can keep the team in the game. No matter how you slice it, the bullpen is going to be really stressed and, unless the offense can start putting up 5 and 6 runs a game consistently, this team will be below .500 (and at least 5 games out of first place) by the All Star break.

brewcrew143:

True, but McClung isnt stretched out whatsoever, the last thing the brewers can afford right now is to have Seth only going 4-5 innings for a few games

mikeyjay21:

brewcrew143:

True, but McClung isnt stretched out whatsoever, the last thing the brewers can afford right now is to have Seth only going 4-5 innings for a few games

I have every bit of confidence that McClung can go 5-6 innings (or perhaps more accurately 60-80 pitches) on Saturday and that he can go 6+ innings by his second start.  That's the kind of thing he's done before, and I don't think it's a stretch to think he could do it again.  He has thrown upwards of 50 pitches coming out of the pen already this year, so I don't see where it's so unlikely that he'd be "stretched out" enough to give you 5+ innings right away this weekend and 6+ innings from his second start on.

On what?  I like McClung but there is a reason he is in the pen this year and not starting.  Look at his career.  He had a decent run last season as a starter but even then he was only going 5 a start. 

McClung has never gone deep into games as a starter but now we are supposed to expect 6+ out of him?

I hope you are right if Melvin does decide to go with McClung but I am very skeptical. 

The_Igniter:

mikeyjay21:

brewcrew143:

True, but McClung isnt stretched out whatsoever, the last thing the brewers can afford right now is to have Seth only going 4-5 innings for a few games

I have every bit of confidence that McClung can go 5-6 innings (or perhaps more accurately 60-80 pitches) on Saturday and that he can go 6+ innings by his second start.  That's the kind of thing he's done before, and I don't think it's a stretch to think he could do it again.  He has thrown upwards of 50 pitches coming out of the pen already this year, so I don't see where it's so unlikely that he'd be "stretched out" enough to give you 5+ innings right away this weekend and 6+ innings from his second start on.

On what?  I like McClung but there is a reason he is in the pen this year and not starting.  Look at his career.  He had a decent run last season as a starter but even then he was only going 5 a start. 

McClung has never gone deep into games as a starter but now we are supposed to expect 6+ out of him?

I hope you are right if Melvin does decide to go with McClung but I am very skeptical. 

Again, he's pushed 50 pitches in outings already this year, so if we're talking about a spot start on Saturday, I definately think he can throw around 70 pitches, and if he gets another start I believe he should be able to throw over 80 because he did exactly that last year.  That's really the barometer for how "stretched out" he can be (which was the comment from the other poster) moving from the pen to the rotation.

Whether or not he actually does go over 6 innings depends on his effectiveness and the manager's in-game moves (obviously).  I see your concern for that, but it's not my argument that he will be any more than a bottom rotation starter.  It's my argument that he's a better bet for a solid start than any of the other guys in AAA.  You think there's reason why McClung's not in the rotation this year; I think that same reasoning can be used for why none of these AAA guys were seriously considered for the team out of spring.  Except for Dillard, these aren't exactly young prospects we're talking about here.  They're minor league journeymen and former mid-level prospects.  It's much riskier to hand them the ball against a major league lineup than giving it to McClung who has been there before.

McClung's track record last season is more impressive than I thought.  He didn't go that deep into games but there were a couple of times he definitely could have gone longer but got taken out before the 7th inning with a pitch count under 80.  Then again he had a couple of stinkers in there too where he got rocked and didn't get to 5 innings.  I was suprised when I looked at his individual game stats. 

I still don't think it would be wise to take him out of the pen and I think you are making way to much out of the jump from AAA to the majors.  It is just another level.  Some time everybody that is in the majors had to make the same jump.  It's the same thing with our bullpen this year, DiFelice, Stetter,  Coffey, and Smith were nothing more than journeymen but all have made the leap just fine this season and now the Brewers have one of the best pens in the division because they gave these guys a shot and didn't stick with overpriced vets with experience.  The pen is different than starting but I think the same philosophy that the guys need a shot applies.  Chase Wright is still somewhat of a prospect at 24 and Chris Cody isn't really ancient at 25. 

It will be interesting to see which way they go.  I would like to see Wright get the ball on Saturday but we'll see what happens. 

The_Igniter:

I still don't think it would be wise to take him out of the pen and I think you are making way to much out of the jump from AAA to the majors.  It is just another level.  Some time everybody that is in the majors had to make the same jump.  It's the same thing with our bullpen this year, DiFelice, Stetter,  Coffey, and Smith were nothing more than journeymen but all have made the leap just fine this season and now the Brewers have one of the best pens in the division because they gave these guys a shot and didn't stick with overpriced vets with experience.  The pen is different than starting but I think the same philosophy that the guys need a shot applies.  Chase Wright is still somewhat of a prospect at 24 and Chris Cody isn't really ancient at 25.   

As you said, there is a difference between starting and relieving, and it's a BIG one. A reliever that is only expected to get a few guys out can get by with less stuff and less of a variety of pitches. That's really all DiFelice and Stetter have been doing and Smith has pretty much just pitched mop up.  It takes a lot more than that to get major league hitters out 2 and 3 times through the lineup. Carlos Villanueva is the poster child for that. If a guy is going to get hammered his third time through the lineup, you're back to the problem of having to go to the pen early.

If it was only one start, I wouldn't mind calling someone up from AAA for a spot start. But this is going to be 2 starts out of every 5 for the next couple of weeks and maybe beyond. McClung may be needed to cover some of those starts.

Thats fine Wisblue but every starter in the majors had to make the leap at sometime.  Starters and relievers are different but they both have to make the leap.  I don't understand why everyone is so skiddish about giving guys who have been pitching well chances.  It's like no MLB team ever dips down to AAA for pitching help.

The_Igniter:

Thats fine Wisblue but every starter in the majors had to make the leap at sometime.  Starters and relievers are different but they both have to make the leap.  I don't understand why everyone is so skiddish about giving guys who have been pitching well chances.  It's like no MLB team ever dips down to AAA for pitching help.

I'm skittish because none of these guys were thought to be ready in spring training, and haven't been mentioned as "waiting in the wings" in the meantime. These would be more like desperation moves.

wisblue:

I'm skittish because none of these guys were thought to be ready in spring training, and haven't been mentioned as "waiting in the wings" in the meantime. These would be more like desperation moves.

Chase Wright was mentioned as AAA depth when acquired and people play there way into and out of a spot in the time between Spring Training and June.

There is a wide range between a super prospect that is waiting in the wings and trash that will never help.  Most players fall into this category.  Just because a player doesn't have the fanfare of a highly touted player doesn't mean they can't be effective. 

We'll see how round 1 goes tomorrow with minor league journeyman Mike Burns off to a big season.

The_Igniter:

and I think you are making way to much out of the jump from AAA to the majors.  It is just another level.  Some time everybody that is in the majors had to make the same jump.  It's the same thing with our bullpen this year, DiFelice, Stetter,  Coffey, and Smith were nothing more than journeymen but all have made the leap just fine this season and now the Brewers have one of the best pens in the division because they gave these guys a shot and didn't stick with overpriced vets with experience.  The pen is different than starting but I think the same philosophy that the guys need a shot applies.  Chase Wright is still somewhat of a prospect at 24 and Chris Cody isn't really ancient at 25.

It's not that the jump between AAA and the Majors is "hard".  It's that it takes a more advanced player to be able to perform at the Major League level, while much lesser skilled players are still able to succeed in AAA.  Now, I'm just not convinced that Wright or Cody or really any of the guys in AAA actually have that ability to perform well in the majors just because they're having a good season in AAA.  That's not to say none of them might end up being an effective big leaguer in the future (especially given Melvin's knack for scrap heap digging), but the regular season in the heat of a division race is not the time to start finding out which player could be a future starter unless you absolutely have to dip into that depth.

Again, it's simply my contention that McClung gives you the best bet for a quality spot start.  It's not about who might end up being a better starter than McClung right now, because this team can't afford to throw away games trying to find out who has it and who doesn't.  It's about playing a safe hand and handing the ball to a guy who's been there before and who you can depend on a little more than you can on a rookie with questionable stuff.  That's why McClung should (and likely will) get the first shot at the rotation over any those guys in Nashville.

mikeyjay21:

You are right; at some time every major league pitcher had to make that jump.  But it should go without saying that only a fraction of those who made it to AAA were ever able to see an out in the major leagues.

I don't think you really understand how close AAA and MLB are to each other.  You are right that it is a fraction but the fraction is closer to 3/4th or 9/10ths.

Out of the top inning pitchers at AAA, Dillard, Wright, Burns, Green, Naverson, Swindle, Ginter have seen major league action.  Out of the top 8 only 1 guy gulin has never seen the majors.

A lot of the Bats in AAA have also seen the majors or will see the majors someday.

mikeyjay21:

Now, I'm just not convinced that Wright or Cody or really any of the guys in AAA actually have that ability to perform well in the majors just because they're having a good season in AAA.  That's not to say none of them might end up being an effective big leaguer in the future (especially given Melvin's knack for scrap heap digging), but the regular season in the heat of a division race is not the time to start finding out which player could be a future starter unless you absolutely have to dip into that depth.

I would say it is a perfect time to find out if players can handle it.  June isn't really the heat of a division race its the middle of summer.  Two years ago the Brewers were in the same position with Seth McClung as they are with Chase Wright today.  The only reason he is making the start on Saturday is because the Brewers gave him another chance.  Granted McClung was being used as a relief pitcher and is now a starter and Wright has always been a starter but the same premise applies.

mikeyjay21:

Again, it's simply my contention that McClung gives you the best bet for a quality spot start.  It's not about who might end up being a better starter than McClung right now, because this team can't afford to throw away games trying to find out who has it and who doesn't.  It's about playing a safe hand and handing the ball to a guy who's been there before and who you can depend on a little more than you can on a rookie with questionable stuff.  That's why McClung should (and likely will) get the first shot at the rotation over any those guys in Nashville.

Well the first spot did go to Burns.  The one having the best year, is the oldest and has the least amount of a pedigree.  McClung will likely get the next spot.  I still don't agree with it, but that is the thing about being a fan your opinion doesn't matter much.  Its not just the spot in the rotation that I am worried about.  Its also the void of the projected 65 appearance 95 inning 3.24 ERA reliever that we now have to fill.  

The_Igniter:

wisblue:

I'm skittish because none of these guys were thought to be ready in spring training, and haven't been mentioned as "waiting in the wings" in the meantime. These would be more like desperation moves.

Chase Wright was mentioned as AAA depth when acquired and people play there way into and out of a spot in the time between Spring Training and June.

There is a wide range between a super prospect that is waiting in the wings and trash that will never help.  Most players fall into this category.  Just because a player doesn't have the fanfare of a highly touted player doesn't mean they can't be effective. 

We'll see how round 1 goes tomorrow with minor league journeyman Mike Burns off to a big season.

I think I'm also apprehensive about the guys at Nashville because the Brewers really seemed to be agonizing over how to fill Parra's spot. It's not as if they quickly decided who to bring up. That suggests to me that they are trying to determine the lesser of a number of evils. Now that they have TWO spots to fill, the situation is compounded.

wisblue:

The_Igniter:

wisblue:

I'm skittish because none of these guys were thought to be ready in spring training, and haven't been mentioned as "waiting in the wings" in the meantime. These would be more like desperation moves.

Chase Wright was mentioned as AAA depth when acquired and people play there way into and out of a spot in the time between Spring Training and June.

There is a wide range between a super prospect that is waiting in the wings and trash that will never help.  Most players fall into this category.  Just because a player doesn't have the fanfare of a highly touted player doesn't mean they can't be effective. 

We'll see how round 1 goes tomorrow with minor league journeyman Mike Burns off to a big season.

I think I'm also apprehensive about the guys at Nashville because the Brewers really seemed to be agonizing over how to fill Parra's spot. It's not as if they quickly decided who to bring up. That suggests to me that they are trying to determine the lesser of a number of evils. Now that they have TWO spots to fill, the situation is compounded.

But there is so much else to consider: options, if guys are ptiching on the correct rest and then how long will they be staying up, especially with the all-star break coming and the hopeful return of Bush and/or Parra.

Ol Dirty Brouhard:

wisblue:

The_Igniter:

wisblue:

I'm skittish because none of these guys were thought to be ready in spring training, and haven't been mentioned as "waiting in the wings" in the meantime. These would be more like desperation moves.

Chase Wright was mentioned as AAA depth when acquired and people play there way into and out of a spot in the time between Spring Training and June.

There is a wide range between a super prospect that is waiting in the wings and trash that will never help.  Most players fall into this category.  Just because a player doesn't have the fanfare of a highly touted player doesn't mean they can't be effective. 

We'll see how round 1 goes tomorrow with minor league journeyman Mike Burns off to a big season.

I think I'm also apprehensive about the guys at Nashville because the Brewers really seemed to be agonizing over how to fill Parra's spot. It's not as if they quickly decided who to bring up. That suggests to me that they are trying to determine the lesser of a number of evils. Now that they have TWO spots to fill, the situation is compounded.

But there is so much else to consider: options, if guys are ptiching on the correct rest and then how long will they be staying up, especially with the all-star break coming and the hopeful return of Bush and/or Parra.

I understand all that and, if anything, it seems to point to using McClung for the starts and using the minor leaguers (some of whom have no real future with the major league team) to cover long relief and mop up. With the status of the Brewers rotation there have been, and are going to continue to be, a lot of mop up innings that can be filled by almost anyone without putting a reasonably winnable game at risk.

Wisblue  & Mikeyjay.

The early results are in and although the overall record for these two are the same (1-1) how they have pitched is entirely different.

Burns has 12.1 innings in two starts and a 4.39 ERA.  His first start could have been won but McClung's replacement gave up 2 runs in a third of an inning in what ended up being a 2 run game.

On the other hand, McClung has a 12.27 ERA in 7.1 innings and two starts.  He has really taxed the Bullpen, especially without him in there to eat some innings.

It would be nice to know where the Brewers would be sitting with Chase Wright in the starting rotation instead of McClung in these 4 starts.